089 Kevin Leivers

In this episode of Pharmacist Diaries, Kevin Leivers, founder of The Naked Pharmacy, shares his personal and professional journey as a pharmacist. Kevin's passion for science and health started at a young age, which led him to pursue a career in pharmacy. He has 35 years of experience in both conventional and natural pharmaceutical industries. He founded The Naked Pharmacy, a company that aims to provide high-quality and evidence-based natural supplements to support health and wellness. By creating The Naked Pharmacy, Kevin hopes to help bridge the gap between traditional pharmacy and natural medicine, and provide patients with a wider range of options for improving their health.

In this episode, Kevin highlights the importance of pharmacists providing personalised advice and support to patients beyond just medication. He believes that pharmacists have a crucial role to play in the future of healthcare, but the industry needs to undergo significant changes and evolve to meet the needs of patients. Kevin also discusses the challenges facing the pharmacy industry, including the pressures of community pharmacy and the need for more resources.

One of the most inspiring aspects of this episode is Kevin's encouragement for pharmacists to think outside the box and invent their own roles within the field. He believes that pharmacists should be open to new ideas and embrace innovation to stay relevant and make a difference in patients' lives. He also shares his experience of developing his own company and how he had to be creative and innovative to make it a success.

Overall, this episode provides valuable insights into the world of pharmacy and the potential for pharmacists to make a significant impact in the future of healthcare. Whether you're a pharmacist or considering a career in pharmacy, this is an engaging and informative conversation with Kevin Leivers that you won't want to miss.

The Naked Pharmacy is offering my podcast listeners a 20% discount on all their products. Use discount code PD20 at checkout to receive the offer.

LinkedIn: @Kevin Leivers

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The Naked Pharmacy Website

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Transcript:

Welcome to Pharmacist Diaries, first of all, Kevin, and, uh, thank you for making the time to come on the podcast today.

 Absolute pleasure. Really looking forward to, uh, chatting all about, uh, different elements of pharmacy. We're both kind of passionate about what pharmacy and pharma being a pharmacist can do, uh, in the world and for ourselves. So, uh, yeah, looking forward to having a good discussion. 

Absolutely. So tell us a little bit about why you became a pharmacist in the first place.

 I always had a passion for health. Um, even as a very young child, uh, I was massively into science, um, at school. Um, and I just instinctively knew that, that I was gonna get in, uh, into a career, uh, relating to healthcare. Wasn't quite sure what it was gonna be. I looked at forensic science for a bit.

Um, I liked. I like the idea of being on a journey where you don't really know where the outcome is. Uh, that kind of sense of adventure, that sense of, uh, discovery, um, was always fascinating to me. And so, um, even to a point where actually I think when you want to go to college, um, I, I, I had a, a drive to go to, to work and I, I dunno where that came from, but so bef Yeah.

Instead of going to college, uh, after doing my O levels, uh, GCSEs now, um, uh, I, I started, uh, writing and applying for jobs and, uh, one of those jobs was in, in boots. Uh, healthcare, they had, uh, research division, uh, chemistry and biology. Um, I, I wrote to both. Um, and, um, as luck would have it, I got a, an interview, uh, a series of interviews.

I had three, I think in all before I actually went into research chemistry. Um, and, uh, uh, I, I was interviewed by the guy that discovered ibuprofen. So, um, uh, that was really fascinating experience actually. Uh, one that's more fascinating as I get older. Looking back at that, that experience as a 16 year old, actually I probably was 15 at the time, uh, being asked of chemistry questions by, by a goal of chemistry.

Um, and at the time, I, I, my view was that this, this was amazing. Uh, uh, we were, it was, uh, you know, I suppose. He was a pioneer of drug discovery and drug discovery was, was the answer to all our problems. And I think as my careers progressed, I think I've gone through a learning cycle, is that yes, it's an answer to, to some of the problems.

Uh, but we have to look wider. We have to look deeper. I think that, um,

 In.

 so go on.

 Yeah. Sorry. I was gonna say, that's really interesting. Um, I was sorry to butt in. Um, I was going to say that, uh, not trying to show your age or how long ago you qualified as a pharmacist, but what was your perception of what pharmacists were able to do in terms of a career when you were 15 or 16 years old?

 Um, I, I don't think I had a perception of pharmacy at that point in time. Um, uh, I think that came later because I, uh, boot's pharmaceuticals paid for my life school, so I. I was, uh, a day in two nights, but in reality it was more like a day and five nights a week, uh, studying. Uh, and then the other four days I would work.

And, uh, in my, uh, second year of the O N C, which is of a part-time qualification, um, uh, there was a pharmacist doing, uh, a course on pharmacy and pharmaceuticals, and it really gave me a different insight. So that was the first time I, I sort of came across a pharmacist and, and, and he was a regular lecturer, the college we were going to.

And it really made me think long and hard. So then I started looking into pharmacy and what, what pharmacists do. And the one thing that really, uh, uh, grabbed me was the fact that it had a wider, a very broad based education and experience. And I really like that because although I was. Chemistry for four years with the, the research department, um, that there was a missing component of that.

I think the biology and the bio biochemical pathways, all of those, those, those processes interlinked as far as I was concerned. So, so this was the first time I saw it presented in a way that I felt that was more holistic. Um, so I, I think that really came when I was more like, I was probably 18 at the time.

Um, and then I went on do a agency at, uh, at noting Trent University, which again, was more chemistry based, but by that point I, I think I'd been converted. So I was having conversations in the lift at work because we had pharmacists in the, uh, uh, drug metabolism unit that, uh, that I, I kept asking questions about, you know, what the course was like.

Uh, you know, what you could do as a pharmacist career-wise. Uh, so I think I made a decision quite quickly as soon as I, I had those lectures. So it just shows you how a lecturer can, can influence and inspire.

 Absolutely. That sounds really exciting. So what was it like in in university for you? What were you sort of passionate about in terms of your learning experience?

 Uh, yeah, so I, for between 16 and 20, I was a big pharmaceutical, so that, you know, that was a incredible experience as a, as a young first working experience, I suppose, working for these PhDs, uh, post-op, uh, chemists and looking at my department was anti-inflammatory and anti rheumatics. Um, uh, my first experience at university, I went to Bathy University, uh, was, I loved it.

I loved the, all the different elements so that the education, um, there were some, uh, areas that I, I was a little bit frustrated about because. Um, you know, we spent like a year and a half, two years on Titrations. For instance, in chemistry. When having worked in a chemistry department, I knew that nobody ever used Titrations anymore.

Uh, we used H P C, so I felt that some of the, uh, the lectures and the subjects were behind the reality. Uh, and that frustrated me a a lot, if I'm honest. Um, but there were lots of elements of the course I loved, um, I mean, uh, the actual practice of pharmacy, some of the case studies, we had a medical doctor come in with case studies and, and I found that really fascinating.

See, seeing, uh, uh, patients explain their journey, their healthcare journey, uh, with the, the medical insight from a doctor's perspective. Uh, um, we didn't really have a pharmacist's perspective on those case studies, so that was interesting. Um, and, um, uh, and, and I, I think that for me, was it. Is that journey.

I said, well, okay, how do we improve that journey, uh, from a patient's perspective? Um, and then, and then as, as time went by, when I graduated, I had a year in hospital pharmacy in a re a year in retail pharmacy. I could see where the drugs really were important, uh, in a hospital, hospital setting. But I saw a lot of, um, uh, polypharmacy, uh, in the retail setting that that really disturbed me and worried me about patients coming back and, and having more and more prescriptions rather than, it didn't seem to me as if they were getting better.

Whereas you could see that the, the, um, the improvements acutely in, in a hostile setting. They'd come in and have their operation and they recover. But I, I, I was concerned that, uh, there was some, there was a lot, lots of missing elements to a person's recovery that, that weren't making sense in a retail pharmacy setting.

I love having conversations with, uh, with customers. I lo love working with colleagues. Uh, within, within the pharmacy, having discussions about, uh, you know, how we can improve things. And, and I think those conversations with customers, uh, about their various problems, their challenges, uh, did make a difference.

But, um, I think I, I became more and more frustrated that I wasn't making a big enough difference, um, in terms of recovery.

 Yeah, so you are already quite, at, quite an early age looking at the bigger picture in terms of, I guess, what the patient experience is now and polypharmacy and preventing those problems from a holistic perspective and looking at kind of, um, medication prevention and improving people's health and wellbeing.

 Yeah. I, I thi I think that you can't, I mean, uh, even in those days, I think if you start talking about mind and body medicine, And I think, uh, people would just look at, at you as if you had, uh, landed from a different planet and that you weren't being scientific, you weren't being evidence based. And the therefore there was a, there was a conflict there.

And yet now, even for the last, I don't know, five, 10 years, we talk about mind body, me medicine. We know that there's based in, in proper research, and we know that the influence of the two, connection of it's, it is becoming stronger, isn't it? Because now we understand the vagal nerve connection between the gut and the brain.

How the, the gut becomes really fundamental to the process of health and how it drives, uh, um, you know, mental health problems. Just because the gut's disturbed, the brain's disturbed, and you don't sleep, you hate, you're anxious, you are feeling low. And, um, So, and all of those wider perspectives I think weren't there 30 odd years ago when I, when I was moving into practice.

Um, and I think that it's evolving at such a rate. My concern is that, um, we have an infrastructure now that is really set in the past and it really needs to be reset right from its grass, uh, roots level, uh, right into the heart of the government, healthcare, uh, national healthcare service, um, the way we license drug, the, the infrastructure for and, and the process for licensing new treatments, whether they're conventional or natural.

Um, I think the whole infrastructure is, is geared towards the past, just in the same way that I think we are coming to an end of, uh, single chemical entities for treatment of disease. Um, because just the mere fact is that most of those chemical entities have been synthesized already and the molecules are getting bigger and bigger and more complex and more expensive to synthesize.

Um, and now we're obviously moving into, uh, more genetic kind of processes for, for producing drugs and researching drugs, but I, we're still in that same pyramid structure for licensing that actually restricts it down to, uh, one component. Uh, and, uh, you know, actually, you know, if I look at the herbal products, the botanical products that I'm promoting and, um, uh, and, and recommending on a, in an integrated way, actually most of those have got multi components.

You, you've perhaps got five, six, uh, key compounds within those botanical mixes that are important. And, uh, it's very difficult to license those within the system. So they end up working as a sort of separate entity. Uh, globally. I think this is the case. You know, they, they run privately, they run alongside an integrated healthcare system, which is actually not fully integrated.

It's getting better, but I think, um, That all has to change. And I think pharmacists are ideally placed to make those changes, but we have to start looking at it, start analyzing and challenging a lot more. I think critical thinking is really fundamental. I, I think that we, we, we are quite conservative, bunch of pharmacists per se, and I think we're not actually encouraged to critical, uh, critically think about the processes that we're, we're endorsing.

Uh, we're in the system, so we have to challenge the system, what's right and what's wrong, uh, what works and what, what doesn't, what's right for us to move forward. Uh, and as, as I said to you before, um, we started today, uh, the fact that we're, we're shutting down hundreds of pharmacies in the UK means that the system, the commercial system, the, the, the way it's integrated with the health service A, is not being valued enough.

But, uh, b it's not working. Uh, if you know, are, are we valuing our own services? Sufficiently that we are getting paid, uh, and, and the businesses are being renumerated in a way that that makes this work going forward. And the reality is, it's not at the moment. And as you said, that there are lots of pharmacists leaving the profession because they're frustrated and rightly so.

Uh, where are these pharmacists, you know, uh, that from the stores that are being shut down, where are they going? Are they retiring? Are they, and all that experience is being lost. Um, and somebo somewhere, somebody's gotta start changing the way we perceive pharmacists. I think.

 Yeah, absolutely. And these discussions and even this kind of like problem solving and critical thinking and critical analysis, I feel needs to start from the university level, including natural medicine as well. I've, I've been banging on about this for a long time, is that you qualify as a pharmacist, you go and work in a community pharmacy, but you. More about vitamins in the job rather than at an early stage. Like it's not a massive component of, um, the pharmacy degree from an under undergraduate perspective. So if you're going into community pharmacy, you could be providing a lot of support to the community in terms of health prevention, um, or diseases that can be treated naturally.

Um, but then a lot of pharmacists, even when I started in community pharmacy out of interest, I did a few little short courses or worked in community pharmacies where there was an experienced pharmacist, um, who enjoyed or was passionate about natural medicine. So I did learn a lot on the go, but there isn't much incorporated into the university degree yet as to supporting this element of pharmacy, which I think is kind of the way forward in terms of health prevention.

 Yeah. Uh, and uh, actually if you think about, um, I was doing some research the other day in terms of the first pharmacies in the UK and where they were founded and, and, and in Europe. I mean, I think, um, it was 700 ad that was, uh, the earliest one in Europe. I think. Uh, UK is more like 17. Um, uh, uh, 17 hundreds and obviously Boots, boots.

Pharmacy itself, I think was early 19 hundreds. And, and in those days there weren't pharmaceutical, uh, uh, drugs available and they were all her list. I mean, admittedly, some of those herbal products were probably, uh, well certainly not evidence based and, and, and probably some, some, uh, uh, concerning elements to their manufacturer.

Whereas I think now, generally, uh, herbal products are made much more stringently and actually we are focusing on evidence based and, and the naked pharmacy was set up for that reason is. Is what's, what are the evidence basis for these products and will only stop ones that have gone through an r c t properly controlled properly placebo, uh, double blinded placebo controlled, uh, with the P values lesson 0.05.

So all those, those, just because it's natural doesn't mean say that you have to throw out the training that we've, we've had the important training and we do a lot of audit auditing of suppliers, uh, GMP audits, uh, quality, uh, processes. Uh, we, uh, we recruit four pharmacists here within, uh, this business.

And, uh, we don't take a penny from the nhs. We're independently funded. Um, and I'm really proud of that in terms of service we provide to customers as well as other, we train other pharmacists. As well. That's certainly an area that I want to grow, um, both here and overseas. So, um, I think that we need to open our eyes is I, you know, I, there was a lot of, when I first started, um, uh, way back, uh, early nineties, I worked for a Swiss herbal company and I think, uh, some of my colleagues thought I'd gone mad.

Um, but actually it was a Swiss pharmaceutical company and it had licensed turbos, just like there are licensed meds. I mean, at the, the clinical trials were not as large as some of the, the prescription meds, but, um, they were there around in the early nineties. And I think that the attitude has changed.

Um, and so, you know, if you go to France, you will always have a, if you have an antibiotic course, you'll always have a probiotic alongside. So why, why wouldn't you do that? You know, it's, it's wiping out the gut flora as well as the, the bad stuff. Um, so why wouldn't you replenish the gut with, uh, probiotics just to compensate for the antibiotic?

Um, so we're not

sounds  so obvious, but it sounds so obvious when you say out loud.

 yeah, and there's a lot of common sense stuff that, you know, uh, I think as time went by, I, I started challenging myself. So actually, if you've got, if you've got diarrhea, why, why are you blocking up the system with low pide? Actually, isn't it better to kind of a test the stool to make sure there's nothing serious in there and treat it in a targeted way, rather than going through several prescriptions for low pide?

Um, so, and actually, isn't that the body's way of trying to get rid of the book that's, that's causing the problem in the first place? So, yes. I mean, it might be a short-term thing, but it as a long-term treatment for that condition, it didn't make any sense. It didn't, wasn't logical. And then we started moving away from that into more rehydration with, uh, um, you know, the, the sashays, um, and the minerals to try and replace what's been lost.

So I think things are moving, but they generally, they don't tend to move fast enough. Um, and, and you're right, I think that has to start at the universities that in terms of the, the way that pharmacists are being trained and supported. Um, but if there's one take home, I would say, uh, and again, we discussed this beforehand, was that don't just limit yourself to the traditional roles, is that you can invent, invent your own role in, in, in pharmacy.

And there are a lot of companies out there that, that need your broad-based skills. I mean, I'm test testimony to it. I mean, I, after I led left Will in 2004, I was their, their chief pharmacist, um, and couple a lot of different work. It was fascinating stuff. But I spent, I was spending too much time doing.

Paperwork and, uh, uh, not enough time innovating. So I set up a r and d consultancy called Lotus Health, and, um, I had six pharmacists working with me on projects around the world. And we built factories, we audited factories, we set up supply chains. We, we developed products, uh, that were completely innovative, uh, uh, very strong berut extracts for lowering blood pressure and it does work.

Um, and that was research alongside, um, William Harvey Research Institute, Carol Linsky Institute in Sweden. And, um, uh, we, we've developed a, a treatment for problem skin using broccoli substrate. Uh, so, um, and it, it's really interesting to, to note that, uh, well, I mean, when I checked this out last time, the, probably percentages have changed a bit, but, you know, 10, 15 years ago, I think something like 50%.

Of the prescribed medicines were, um, were discovered from plants. So actually pharmacy has come from, uh, batan has come from a a, a risen from botanicals, um, and, and evolved from it. So, um, we shouldn't just throw it away. We should integrate it. That's, that's my, that's my, uh, passion if you like.

 No, absolutely, and I completely agree with you. I'm gonna take you kind of two steps back. When you worked for the Swiss pharmaceutical company, what was your role there as a pharmacist? And I guess tell us a little bit about what you learned from that experience and how it applies to what you do.

 Um, yeah, the, the lead period for me was, was quite, uh, uh, important cause it was a big transition point. Um, I just finished working for Upjohn, uh, in, in quality control, quality assurance, um, mainly on injectable. Uh, painkillers, uh, dim morphine, morphine injectables. Um, and I was, I'd come back to the uk I was overseas, uh, with Upjohn and the first job that came up was, uh, with Willa.

And I thought, well, this is really interesting and I'll do two years and then I'll, I'll move back into mainstream, uh, pharmaceuticals. Um, and 11 years later I was still there because I was, I was learning, uh, it was a massive growth spurt in terms of learning for me. A um, we had a farm on site, so we had, I can't remember how, how many acres it was, but it was quite a large farm and we, if we couldn't grow on on site in dia, we grew it in Scotland, or we grew it in Europe.

Cause it was linked to the, I think there's something like 35 different willer sites around the world. So, so the concept of. Uh, plant to product was quite, uh, um, transformative. Cuz before that, before that, I mean, you know, a raw material was a, was a synthetic powder that you either formulated in the lab or it arrived in a box and it was a white powder that, you know, you analyzed.

It was 99.9% pure whatever component. So, um, so that was really interesting and the fact that it has season to season variation. So sometimes, uh, the bioactives within the plant, you know, were sometimes double in, uh, depending on the growing season. So that was really fascinating. We tried to grow Anika, for instance, which is an anti-inflammatory, um, in dha, uh, when it likes elevated.

You know, it likes to be quite high, above sea level. And that's, and we'd, we would be, we had been growing it in Scotland and when we tested it had virtually no bioactive in there whatsoever. So, uh, so there was stuff like that happening all the time, you know? Wow, that's amazing. That's incredible. And how to take those plants, how to extract them using different, uh, methods.

More traditional, perhaps, uh, uh, less solvent based. Uh, we did use a solvent. It was normally grain, alcohol, uh, and water. Um, and, um, just looking at, because we had a, a registered pharmacy on site, uh, and we had, you know, two or three pharmacists kind of managing the customer side. Um, we also saw the impact with the patients.

So what was surprising me was how, how powerful these, uh, these products were in terms of the end. End effect. So, and that was quite challenging because I think I, I had a fairly, um, neutral stance in terms of botanicals, uh, before I started. I, I, I went there because it was head of manufacturing and I thought, this is gonna be really interesting.

Um, and I didn't expect to see such profound, um, and quick improvements, um, based on the drugs and, uh, so they're often standardized in terms of minimum levels of bioactives. And that was really, that was really important to me because how it linked to the research and how it linked to my training. So, you know, just because it's a natural doesn't mean say that, you know, you can just take, create an extract that's not standardized, hasn't been tested for its bioactives and it doesn't have a, a minimum level.

So I saw that, uh, was really important and that stayed with me the whole time. It's that importance of supply chain, where it's grown, when it's grown and harvested, how it's harvested, how it's extracted, um, how it's tested, um, and what you are testing for. So having moved into the sort of natural sector through Beda and since, because all my projects, even as a consultant, were, were all naturals ORs.

Um, you can see a lot of companies, you know, it's a bit like the Wild West, unfortunately in the natural sector. You've got the good and, and and the, and then the, the bad and the cowboys and um, a lot of the companies are basically selling. Sub-therapeutic doses of bioactives and uh, and, and you know, it's like chipping off a, a portion of your ibuprofen or as aspirin tablet expecting it to work as an anti-inflammatory.

Um, and the same principle applies. So, so that's, that's one of the ways I differentiate between a good and a not so good, um, uh, supplement. So, so the, so the takeouts for me was passion from Wda, uh, you know, I, I was hooked, um, in terms of the sex and what it could do. I, I felt that there was a much wider element to what I was doing at Wda cuz we were tend to be focused on, uh, specific, um, minerals.

Um, and minerals perhaps you might find in the codex and an old-fashioned farmer caper, uh, you know, and Tim Bismuth and, and, and, and the, like. We were making those more traditional re uh, products externally and internally, um, and, and herbal, uh, botanicals. So ones that would be more, um, recognized as a herbal medicine rather than a food.

Since when I left, uh, well, in 2004 I really started to move into food science because what was fascinating me then was the fact that, well, if you can take certain foods that perhaps you wouldn't consume in large amounts, would they behave like medicines without the side effects. So really, that, that facil the time it will lead 11 years at Willa facilitated my education in manufacturing quality control, sourcing, supply chain, um, and how that interface with the, uh, with the customer or the patient.

When I left, uh, will in 2004, I was really starting to look wider and think, well actually, can Fus do the same thing if you concentrate them? So, um, a classic example of that would be saffron. Um, obviously you use saffron in your cooking. You might use one or two strands of the, the spice or the powder depend on how you're using it.

But if you concentrate saffron to a higher dose and standardize it with the three active bioactives, when there, it's very good for mood balancing. It's very good for reducing anxiety, it's very good for sleep. And these are based on randomized controlled trials. So actually, if you're having issues with benzodiazepines, if you're having issues with, um, uh, over prescription of antidepressants, why not use this as a softer interface before you get to that point?

And my experience is, uh, with the use of this over probably. Now, seven years within this business. Cause that, that was one of our first products, Seton, uh, where Saffron is its core ingredient. The impact it's having on people's lives are, are profound and it, and it doesn't have side effects, doesn't interact, uh, obviously we're, we are cautious with pregnancy and breastfeeding because the lack of data.

Um, but why, why not use that as an integrated approach? It's different to general cooking because of the dose, but it works and it's safe and it's effective and it's, it's very fast acting. You know, within three or four days you're seeing a big difference in terms of our clients. And, and, and that reflects with the R C T data that we've got already, that's already published out there.

 That's fascinating. What an interesting experience for you, and it's very clear that your background has kind of led you to where you are, um, which is really interesting from a career perspective. I guess tell us a little bit about, um, your initial thought Pro. Processes, um, when developing the idea for naked.

 I, I think for, for me, it was a, uh, a more of a legacy product, uh, or project, um, because I always wanted to make a difference to people's lives. Um, and it felt a lot more personal, uh, for me in terms of developing the, the company. A I didn't want it to be a separate nutrition company without, I'm a pharmacist.

I've been bought up through the pharmaceutical industry. I'm really proud of that. Um, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm. Constantly amazed by my colleagues in terms of their ability, um, ha their ability to develop in, in all sorts of different directions and the impact they have on, on people's lives every day. Um, I, I, I just think for me, this was my channel for getting a service out there that was free, openly available to everyone.

Whether it's through, through social media channels, through telephone, through emails. I mean, uh, our, uh, pharmacist dimple, um, you know, I mean, I dunno, I think she said something like 18 emails this morning. Um, uh, various different queries. And it might be simple. How do I treat my cold naturally to, I'm taking this prescription, can I take this alongside safely?

I, I, I love the fact that we're making those simple differences to people's lives, and that, that it, it's a, it, there's, there's no doubt it's a necessary service that there's a demand out there. And I suspect that demand's gonna get more and more because how, how do you get to speak to a pharmacist, uh, these days with pharmacies shutting down?

How do you get to speak and get some advice that's personal to you? And, um, you know, we, we've got a range of products, uh, both our own and, uh, bought in products that we believe in that's got a good evidence base. And, and th those will grow, I think will end up with about 200. And our services will grow around that.

In terms of, uh, testing services, I, I believe in market testing. Um, and I think people, if they understand what these markers mean, then they can actually track improvements in terms of their, their, their health. And if they can see an improvement, they're can realize that they are having an impact. And I think that's another take home from my journey, uh, which is actually we want, we need to empower people to understand that they are in charge here.

And I think there's been a, um, this thing that, you know, uh, members of the public, people out there have to defer to the, the, the medics and the pharmacists and the, the, everything we say is go, actually, we are moving, we are in a, uh, in a phase where we're, we should be facilitating, not dictating. So empower people with the right information, the evidence-based information Absolutely.

And give them choices and help them find the right choices for them. Don't push it down their throats. You have to have this. Actually these, you know, we often will say, well, there's a, there's a natural and there's a conventional choice here. You can take it two side by side or you can take one at a time.

And I always say, if it's working for you, great. If it's not, then try something different. And that applies to the natural cetera as well. So, uh, so for me, I set the, the Naked Pharmacy up because I wanted a, something where I wanted a hub where people could feel they belonged and trusted. I wanted a hub that created a, a much more of a community feel about it.

And we're building that slowly but surely. I think we're up to about 60,000, um, in the UK alone. Um, as I say, we've got four pharmacists working on. Um, and they're all different personalities, all, all from different backgrounds, and I think that that mix is really important as well. Um, because I'll approach, uh, things differently to dimple and, and, and Emma, you know, we'll have our core training, but we approach things differently and that's important as well.

Um, so the service side is really important. Um, the products that have the biggest impact are, is really fundamental. I had a, um, when we first launched, I mean, I self-funded this for three years and, uh, you know, it's not for the faint hearted and I, I, I was, you know, I had a very lucrative, you know, uh, business as a consultant and consultancy and, uh, so, you know, you feel a bit nervous about going into that territory when you're taking that step.

Uh, and I was older, so you say, well, you are more experienced. But actually I had to learn a whole new set of skills. In my, my forties and fifties that I, I, I hadn't got. So, uh, from the entrepreneurial point of view, I think those, those skills came later. They, they weren't there when I was 16. They weren't there when I was in my twenties.

Um, they came later. So I suppose it comes with confidence, but as, as that evolved, um, you, you, you know, you take those steps forward and, and I, I got into this space where we had two products, the Sacrason, uh, for mental health. And we had a product for cholesterol, which is based on an Italian, Italian fruit, bergam up fruit.

And again, it had some really good data, proper randomized, controlled DR trials. There was a brilliant study in the International Journal of Cardiology where it was showing how it could be integrated alongside the statin. To improve outcomes and reduce dose of statin. So that, to me was perfect. So I went out with these two products and within, uh, a few, well, probably two months, I think I had two letters, which said to me, I, I'm on the right track.

And one, one was from a practitioner, uh, saying his, his patient, uh, having been Acrophobic, um, for years, suddenly for some re bizarre reason, had taken the SROs and within a few weeks, had started cycling to his mother's house every day. And then a few months later, he, he was out and about. He said that it, it just seemed to have kind of triggered something and a rebalance.

Uh, maybe he just, he felt that he was on, in charge of his own symptoms for a, for a short period of time. And eventually he kept writing to me and said, well, you know, he is, he's now set, set up his own business. He's got his life back on track. And so you could argue that that was a spontaneous remission, nothing to do with the Safra Sun, uh, anecdotal, but to me that was a, a sense, well, actually this is what it can do.

Um, as part of the clinical trials sort of, uh, framework that we'd, we'd designed and formulated the, the product, um, it shows it works. And we had case after case after case. And then, uh, the second letter that really had a big impact on me was from, uh, the wife of a customer who, uh, was on a lot of, um, uh, a lot of painkillers.

Uh, he was de he was depressed cause he wasn't working. Very creative guy worked on in the film industry and, um, he wasn't exercising. His, his life, health-wise had taken a spiral and it impacted on so many different things. And so he'd taken the sen uh, and he'd taken a lot of high dose turmeric for his, uh, his pain.

And he said he'd come off all his painkillers, his depression had lifted. He said he just, he was sleeping better. He wasn't so anxious and he was back at work, uh, working on, on creatives for the film industry. And his wife said, well, thank you so much because I've got my husband back. That was, that to me was everything because it's, you know, no matter what pain you go through, just to sort of see that you are seeing that impact on people's lives and, um, and, and that's to this date.

So, you know, we're seven years old. Um, you know, we're, we're, we're launching into the us we're launching into, uh, Asia. Um, we've got some, uh, connections with practitioners in the Middle East. Um, and, um, yeah, so I, I, I just, I'm really excited about what, what this can do in terms of people's lives and a sense of where people can come and share stories and experiences and get advice.

Um, because, you know, I mean, we're all, we're all going through, we've all been through a lot of stuff recently, uh, you know, with Covid, et cetera, et cetera. And I think, um, we are looking for solutions and, and that's what we're all about, trying to find natural solutions. And, and if that also includes exercise, that also includes diet dietary approaches, we'll bring in those bits of advice just to make the difference.

 Wow, what an interesting experience and how rewarding to hear all of that feedback. I mean, if, if it was an organization where you were selling the products through your website, which you are obviously, um, but you weren't having those individual interactions with a customer, you wouldn't be getting that feedback from them as to the impact it's making on their lives. you to continue to do what you do and just making your job extremely enjoyable because you're seeing how much support that these products are actually providing to people's lives. And some of those stories are, are incredible. Um, tell us a little bit about how that works in terms of, um, the virtual setup and, and what pharmacists, uh, the support pharmacists you have are actually doing on their day to.

 Um, so, um, uh, we, we, we handle queries coming through social. Um, if we try to bring those off the, it might be a surface skim on the social just asking for help, uh, we'll take those off privately for a more in-depth discussion or the, the pharmacist will, um, obviously we get a lot of emails, um, sometimes maybe 120 hundred 15 a day.

Um, and so we deal with those individually. Um, and then we get a lot of calls. Um, I, I think it, it goes through phases with, with telephone. Sometimes it, it gets very busy and sometimes it'll be a bit quieter and it goes to email or sometimes it'll shift to social. So I think you've gotta try and meet people where they are in their lives and, and, you know, generally people are, are very busy these days, have got, you know, families have got both parents at work and, and they've got, you know, kids or whatever.

There's, there's a lot of complications. Bless you. Um, and, um, so I, I think people. Um, we have to meet people where they're at, so we try and make it as convenient as possible and simple as possible. Um, but if they wanted a more, excuse me, in depth, um, sort of discussion, then we're happy to provide that and just like a normal pharmacy or signpost to where they need to go if they need sort of additional help.

And, and I think that's also quite important, um, to know when, where, where our boundary is, where, where our skill mix, uh, stops and they need to go back and we'll, we'll, we'll always be respectful of the relationship between the GP and, and the patient. We'll never get in between that, so we'll often refer back to the gp, um, or private practitioner where when, where necessary.

 Interesting. And I, I mean, you've talked about the organization, you know, growing and expanding out to, um, different countries, and I assume your pharmacy team will slowly, um, keep growing. What type of pharmacists are you hiring? Um, in terms of, uh, like what do you look out for in terms of skillset and experience when you are hiring pharmacists into the.

 It's a really interesting, important question. Thank you. Um, I, I've changed my attitude towards recruitment and, and applies to non-pharmaceutical as well, which is, is, um, I, I, I'm less interested in experience. I'm more interested in state of mind and an attitude, and I think the flexibility and an inquiring and flexible mind is far more important to, you know, a 30 year.

Impressive cv. Um, I mean obviously that's important and that's what useful that goes on without saying, we check those out. But, um, and the ability to fit in with other people and how they are with, with, with customers. Because I think as a general rule, we've had some amazing pharmacists come through the door, uh, with theirs.

And sometimes, you know, we had an amazing hospital pharmacist that had been in hospital pharmacy for a long time, wanted to change. Um, and she was with us for a few years and, and amazing dynamic person, great with customers, um, great with the challenges that came along that sometimes she had no training for whatsoever.

And, uh, in, in the end, she's, she's retired from pharmacy that, you know, so, uh, we, we lost her unfortunately. But, um, uh, so a classic example, somebody with a lot of experience. But had the flexibility in mind and the, and the enjoyment of something different coming through every day. So pharmacists are not com comfortable with that and that's fine.

Um, that, that's, that means it's probably not for them. Uh, because what we get through the door of day is not, you know, uh, we have standard operating procedures, but actually, uh, um, we almost have to create a new one each time because everybody's health journey is different. Um, and yes, you can standardize that to a certain extent, but you also have to try and understand what the dynamics are, uh, driving those, those problems.

And sometimes those, those dynamics are social, uh, or a life event that that happened, that, that, that really challenged them. And so then a decision has to be taken while actually, how much can I help here? And how much do we need to refer on? So in terms of recruitment, I think attitude of mind and ability to, to work with others personality.

It's really important and, um, uh, I see some amazing people coming through, uh, university. But I also see, um, the problem that I, I saw a long time ago, 30 years ago, is that kind of linear approach and narrow approach. You know, I'm g you know, this is, this is what I do and this is how I'm going to do it.

Instead of actually thinking, well, actually maybe we can evolve this a little bit. Um, and I think if pharmacists can do that and learn how, and, and the universities can encourage them to do that as part of their, their profession, then I think that, uh, they demand for pharmacists within industry, it doesn't necessarily have to be, pharmaceuticals will get wider because their ability to apply what they've learned to, uh, uh, you know, uh, I mean health, health metrics and digital health is growing at such as speed now.

And, um, I'm not sure, you'll probably know better than me about how much that is taught within the university. So are, are we really looking at that as a, as an option? Are pharmacists coming through the profession, actually understanding that that's available to them? They're in a perfect position.

 No, that's a really good topic of conversation, and actually I was, Up a, a a point about, um, you know, empowering people to take ownership of their health and a comment that you had made a few minutes ago when it comes to the university setup and the curriculum. There's so much to include from a basic point of view that every hour is literally packed.

And now we've got this G P H C in kind of the, the government drive to get everyone to be a prescriber at the end of their university degree, which is gonna be 2026. We need to implement this. And I went back to work from maternity leave last week, so I've had six months off. I've got a new baby. Um, I'm returned to work a little bit early and my first week back I have a meeting and these discussions on how to incorporate, um, more placements and more time in real live pharmacy.

Um, Practice areas, whether it's gp, community Hospital, fitting those hours in is a massive challenge on top of the fact that the locations that you send these students to are lacking resource and staff are feeling very, um, burnt out in terms of like the amount of work they're having to do and the expectations on them.

So there's a real, uh, challenge that we've been faced with and I'm sure we can overcome it. And as a team, I have all the faith in the world that we can get our students through this experience, but it's just gonna take us quite a while to, to get to the point where we can provide this many hours of.

Real live training. Um, we have got virtual systems in place now where you can set up virtual pharmacies and help them with counseling and kind of problem solving. And one of the other topics that came up in terms of the drive of moving this curriculum forward is looking at behavioral science and actually looking at, um, patient experiences and not just saying, take one tablet a day, and then just expecting them to do that.

And truly understanding what the patient's life is like, you know, what their environment's like, what their mindset is like, and at what point they're in, uh, mentally in terms of accepting that a medication is what they need to feel better for whatever disease that you're trying to treat. Um, but looking at that person's mindset and helping them to make those decisions on their own or coming up with the answers that you would. Expect them to be able to solve their own problems. And they did a little bit of a pilot. And when you look at kind of first and second year pharmacy students, we've got a long way to go. They're very much, um, green in terms of, you know, counseling and it's expected, don't get me wrong, and I'm not putting down first and second year pharmacy students, but it's a case of yes, you know, it's aspirin, it's 75 milligrams, it comes as one tablet, you have it every morning after food.

Like that's the basic. Um, but we're trying to drive this system forward that actually patients may turn around and tell you, Hey, I don't wanna take that. I'm not interested in taking that. So the pharmacy students then, Try and figure out what the reasons are behind that answer. Um, and also sometimes respect that that's the patient's choice.

They did a simulation and one of the students was like, well, no, you have to take it. But it's understanding autonomy and the fact that they can reject what you are suggesting and working around that situation. So it's really interesting that we are not in the environment that we used to, where it was very much like streamlined to like, know the information you need to give the patient.

Just kind of provide the information and then just expect that. The patient does everything else. Um, so it's really interesting that this is changing. Um, and I'm excited to see how we can support our students. Um, for me, like counseling and kind of understanding the patient's environment, their quality of life, what works for them, what their challenges are, what obstacles they have in terms of taking something.

Um, or even if it's something as simple as they're constipated and you want to advise them to drink more water, cuz they don't. Or they have 10 cups of coffee a day, um, and they're wondering why they're still constipated. You know, opening that mindset and having that conversation and really getting to know them is, it's quite natural for me and it's something I genuinely enjoy doing.

But that's not the case for everyone and it's, it's gonna be really good to see how we're training pharmacy students to, to change their perception.

 Yeah, it's interesting. Uh, the, the other thing is, um, so I think what, what you're talking about, and I'm really, I'm pleased to hear you saying that it is changing and, and I can understand how difficult that is because I know from colleagues that are still in retail pharmacy, they are all struggling to, to fit everything in, in terms of the additional kind of work.

And, and my concern is that the workload is such that, and the squeeze on the finances is such that actually you'll see le the customer will see less of a pharmacist than the, uh, rather than more, uh, and the availability of pharmacists on the high street is gonna, is gonna change. Now, I went into, um, uh, I won't mention, uh, names, but went into a, a, you know, um, Multi chain, large, uh, chain, uh, pharmacy, uh, o over the weekend.

And, um, the, the, the place was packed. The pharmacy downstairs was packed and there was a queue of people, probably about 20 people long. Uh, there was one dispenser and one and one pharmacist, and you could see that they were completely over overwhelmed. And, um, I think, well, okay, I can understand the staffing issue.

Obviously form salaries, pharmacy salaries are going up. Um, but, um, this is obviously not, not the way to, to look after that number of, of customers coming through. So there, there's such a lot of pressure on both sides that we have to find another way of, of, of funding that. And, Um, and, and I, I think probably, and I've seen a, a new, you know, a pharmacist chain kind of being developed to look at adding on services to the core pharmacy function of dispensing, which are, some of which are paid.

So, um, and so whatever it is, the government has to change its attitude towards pharmacy. And pharmacy has to find different ways to, uh, create the revenue, to support the, the, the pharmacist infrastructure so that the customer is the sufficient resource to, to deal with the customer. So, but I think that, uh, closeness between pharmacists and the customer being able to have the time to understand what the dynamic is and, and to.

The advice, the generic advice, accordingly, I think is really important. And generally speaking, we don't have the time at the moment, so we have to make the time, we have to find a, make a way of making that time. And um, and I just wonder as well, whether actually the pharmaceutical industry creates a product but then almost takes a, a big step back from the customer and leaves it all for the mes and the, and the pharmacist to, to deal with the, the queries arising.

And, you know, actually where else in, in industry do, do, do companies that provide products do that? Um, actually you, surely you have to have some sort of, I mean, they'll, within a pharmaceutical, uh, company, there'll be a drug information pharmacist that deals with the hospital queries generally, sometimes from pharmacists, but not often.

Um, but maybe, maybe they need to be stepping up and creating a team that actually starts to, to communicate or provide a resource that, that can communicate with customers. I don't know, I'll just throw that out there, but it seems to me that the pharmaceutical industry have, uh, there there's a distance there between they're producing the product, they're researching, developing the product, but actually from a customer point of view, they have very little customer contact.

Um, and even the original contact between the pharmaceutical industry and the doctor has sort of disappeared. I mean, it used to be that the rep would go and have a discussion and go through the research and stuff, and for what I'm told that that has stopped as well. So there's a bit of an issue there.

So I think whatever it is, we just have to come up with ideas that are practical and, and work. But that interaction between pharmacists and customer is really fundamental. And, and, and you know, when I, I go back into the pharmacy after this, you know, I'll hear dimple on the phone, chatting away, listening, having time to listen and adapt whatever she's recommending according to the customer.

And I think that's gold dust. Um, and, you know, I'm really proud that we're providing that service. So that, to me, I wouldn't want to have a, you know, a, um, a robot or a distant service where we're not talking to customers. Cause that that's pharmacy.

 Yeah, absolutely. And it kind of goes back to the point that you made, um, quite a few minutes ago, um, about, oh, I've completely blanked. Way to go Anina on the podcast live. It's like I've blanked on the conversation. Ah, um, oh, it's gone to my brain. No, it was, um, oh no, it was a really good point as well. Oh, it'll come back to me.

It'll come back to me. But let me ask you a question while I think about that. Is that, um, you know, we talked a little bit about, we talked a little bit about recruitment. Um, and you also mentioned that, uh, it's not always about the experience that you come with and what's on your cv, obviously when you're hiring pharmacists.

Um, but, uh, what training do you provide that supports your pharmacist to be able to have these very, um, kind of intricate conversations with, uh, patients? And like you said, each patient is a very different experience and you can't just have a one size fits all. S o p. Um, how do you support your staff in terms of their development within their roles?

 Um, we, we have a training manual, uh, for pharmacists, which we developed and it's a, it's a bit, bit like a softer version of the bnf. Um, and it gives them some framework cuz uh, you, you can't just leave it open. So we, we create a framework from the research. Uh, from the, the way that it's been formulated and, uh, the, the, the dosage regimen that we've set up originally and some user experience, because sometimes we'll find, you know, uh, for instance, when we first started Safra some, we, we were recommending them to take it at night, and then we found actually that it was much better taking in the morning.

It was just from user experience and, you know, I, my, my family take all the products that, that we formulate and, um, I wouldn't have it any other way. Um, and so, so we built that in. Um, there, there is, uh, we have standard operation procedures, uh, within the pharmacy, further way to, um, to manage customers and the way to record, uh, uh, customer interventions.

And, um, around that I will often sit with, um, the pharmacists because there'll be something that comes in that's, Uh, unusual or challenging. And, you know, I've got 35 years of experience of dealing with, um, uh, unusual, uh, questions. And sometimes it's relating to manufacturing, sometimes it's relating to components.

Um, so, um, so I'll sit down with them and I'll go through the way that, um, that I, I, I approach them, uh, approach the problem and then say, well, okay, you know, what, what, what do you feel comfortable with? So I don't really necessarily want them to take on my, my approach, listen to my advice, listen to the, my experiences.

Um, there may be two or three cases previously like that or similar and shape your own response and learn and learn from that. Um, I think that, um, uh, with some of the pharmacists, uh, there, I can see the different skill mixes as well. So, Uh, with, with Dimple, she's really, uh, getting into the supply chain side of it.

So I'm bringing in quality control, manufacturing the parameters to, uh, to review, uh, certificates of analysis for botanicals, what she should be looking out for. So there's a sort of process of, of development, uh, which was pretty much similar to the process of, of training that we had at wda. Um, I mean, at Wda we, we had, we couldn't recruit pharmacists.

Um, so we, we developed train calls over six, six, well, for six months, two pharmacists every six months. And generally we recruited those pharmacists that, that came outta that, uh, uh, they were salaried on a, you know, a fairly basic salary. But after that training course, they graduated with a six month, uh, sort of experience from start to finish the process.

And that was really useful. And I, I used that as a bit of a template for what we're doing. Here at the NA pharmacy, so that, that NA pharmacy was, you know, um, I'm, I'm very grateful for Toda for a lot of the, uh, early work they did in, in terms of transforming the way i I work as well. Is that,

 I love that you've got a little sort of family team there and it's not a dictatorship, but you're kind of learning from one another, um, and guiding each other along the way and. And developing each other's kind of learning styles and, and the ways of working, which sounds like a really nice environment.

Are you in-house together in the offices every day or sometimes people are working from home?

 um, mostly in the office now, uh, post covid, we were kind of working remotely. I, I, I didn't really like that, to be honest. I'm a bit old fashioned. I like the team together. There's a sort of, there's a sort of, uh, energy and dynamism when you get into a room together. Um, we're, we're starting.

 absolutely.

 We're starting to, uh, struggle with the space that we've got at the moment.

So I think we'll be moving into a bigger, bigger, uh, um, bigger pharmacy at, at some point soon, I think. Um, but it's great. We, you know, we get on really well. I think the non, uh, we've got obviously got, uh, customer care, customer service kind of people that are ma uh, managing as part of the team. Uh, so the, the more kind of, um, non pharmacy queries and we all get on like, you know, really well and we work together as a team.

And sometimes the, you know, there'll be ideas kind of thrown out into the ring about how to manage things better. Uh, because we're growing, we're evolving, and, you know, I don't want to be doing, uh, things the same way, you know, in a few years time, uh, even a year's time. I wanna be doing thi I want to be evolving continuously.

And, um, and also it's not, it's not all about me, you know, I'm. Uh, I'm 57 and, uh, I've got plenty more years in me left, but I don't want it to be, uh, about me. I want it to be about the team that can take this on. Uh, and for this to be a, you know, something that's got longevity. Um, I wanna,

 Absolutely. And you talked, you talked a lot about being open-minded and the flexibility, um, in terms of your mindset with the job. So you know, you're fitting in with your own values,

 I hope so.

 is great.

 I try to, yeah.

 I, um, I remembered my point by the way. Um, it came back to me. I knew it would. Um, so you talked a little bit about, uh, pharmacy and how we need to be more open-minded in terms of problem solving and thinking about what issues there are and trying to pave the way forward. And I was going to say that actually there are some really exciting things that are happening in silos sometimes, but when it comes to, um, counseling and looking at medications, and you talked a little bit about the pressures of the community pharmacist and not having time necessarily to have those one-on-one conversations.

Um, I recently found out, which I wasn't aware of, that the n h s have, um, QR codes, which are put onto medication boxes. The patient scans. The QR code and it brings up a video on their phone, for example, explaining what that medication is and all the counseling points needed to take that medication in multiple different languages.

And that's really exciting cuz pharmacists are getting involved in what's actually being recorded into those videos and the information that's being provided to the patient, which they can then listen to multiple times over and over again if they haven't understood it the first time and they're not in a busy pharmacy environment where of course it would be ideal if they got the information as they collected the medication, but sometimes there is a lot of distraction where you feel rushed to kind of get your counseling because you know there's someone behind you who's also waiting for their medicines.

Um, and the pharmacist also feels slightly rushed to provide as much information they can in a speedy way and get you out the door so the next customer can be dealt

 That's a cool idea.

 Yeah, like it's an amazing idea and I was really excited because I work in pediatrics with, in palliative care and when these patients are going home with multiple medications, which they could potentially use, and the parents don't necessarily use it immediately on discharge, but maybe if their child deteriorates after a month, they've of course forgotten everything I've told them in the hospital environment.

And actually having these QR codes sounds like a brilliant idea for me to showcase what we can, um, advise parents in terms of giving a medication and even looking at a root of administration, like if it's a buccal medication, explaining how do you give a buccal medicine to a baby,

 Wow.

 um, you know, multiple weeks down the line.

Um, so I was really excited that. There are projects going on in pharmacy that you wouldn't even think about doing when you're in your university degree. Um, these kind of ideas don't just kind of pop up in conversation when you're studying in your day-to-day, um, undergraduate degree. Another exciting thing is I've obviously set up this podcast and it's passion project of mine.

I'm all into the videography and the quality of the video and the sound and everything else, and everything that's come out of this project. I'm now utilizing some of that knowledge and experience in my day-to-day work, which is so cool. So it's really important to just say to students, to young pharmacists or any pharmacist out there that be creative, be innovative, like huge use, like everything digital to your advantage.

And if you've got an idea, you know, never feel fearful to try and make it a reality.

 Absolutely don't, don't be, don't be scared to try something if, if it doesn't work, there'll always be something that comes outta that failure, which is useful. And, um, I think that this, uh, this fear that there, there is there to not trying something new, not not stepping forward. Well, why don't we give this a go and see if it works.

I mean, that, that QR code, so who's producing the QR codes and the videos? Is it, is it NHS or is it their companies? Or who, who's doing that?

 I am not sure who's exactly producing the QR code, but it is definitely linked with an NHS initiative. I'll send you the link outside of this and I'll put it in show notes. Um, For the podcast episode in case anyone else is interested because it's something I really want to look into, um, in terms of the work that I'm doing in the hospital.

Um, before we kind of, uh, close out our conversation, tell everybody how you can or how they can get in touch with you or with, uh, the naked pharmacy.

 Uh, so, uh, yes, we're online, uh, the naked pharmacy.com. Um, we have a team of pharmacists, so you can email the pharmacist@thenakedpharmacy.com. Uh, if you look on social media, we're on Facebook and, uh, Instagram and Twitter, so you can contact us through those means. We're also on YouTube, so, uh, actually, um, we'll put a link on YouTube to, uh, to this podcast.

Um, that's always useful. Um, and, uh, if, if not you, um, you can find us on the phone so you can call us. Uh, I think the phone phone number's on oh (148) 368-5630. So I do still remember it. Um, and so the contact is page, we'll have all the details on there. Um, as I said, there's a team of four pharmacists, so, um, occasionally you might get me, um, and, uh, you know, whether you're a pharmacist or, uh, member of the public, they were happy to hear from you.

Advise if there's a pharmacist that needs interest in, uh, you know, some career advice, whatever, then I'm happy to help support because I, I know how difficult it is. Um, uh, I think you go through various phases of your career and it's really difficult to kind of shape something that's that's right for you.

And, um, so, you know, I think, you know, these podcasts well done for, for getting this set up and the advice coming out of it, I think is really. Innovative and transforming. So, um, you know, don't, don't be scared. There's plenty of opportunity out there for, for pharmacists, so please don't leave the profession.

Uh, just find something that works, works for you. And as you say, you know, that gives me heart what you said about the QR case, that there is evolution happening. That's important. Um, I think we just need to perhaps do it faster. And I think that from a government perspective, from a licensing perspective, I think we just need to, to keep all the, um, opportunities on the table and, uh, and the doors open for, uh, good evidence-based, properly manufactured and research products so that, uh, they, they can do what they're meant to do, which is make a difference to people's health and lives.

So, um, that's leading discussion. Thank you.

 Thank you and thank you for making time for me today and um, I really look forward to hearing more about Naked Pharmacy for the future.

 Brilliant. I'll, I'll come back in a year's time and we'll talk, talk about it again.